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Janguv

PES is great... or terrible?

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There's this thing going on now, in the wider PES fanbase, where some hardcore fans have finally had enough. You probably know the suspects - that Bryan guy from the Winning Eleven fansite and the guys who do/did the FootyUnited podcast with them. 

Their argument is generally that every single year for many, many editions, release code is always worse than E3 and demo code, and always worse in respect of making it easier, less risky, having less player individuality, worse AI, and essentially adjusting itself for the "casual". 

Their benchmark for proper AI, risk-reward defending, player individuality, and overall gameplay is the early PES. Their reference point for a proper online mode is MLO in 2011. Every aspect of the online and offline experience has, in their opinion, suffered since, to the point where you might as all plump for FIFA to get a more complete package. 

What do you think? 

Part of me thinks that they've exaggerated how good PES 5 & 6 were, and that they're as much opposed to change in gaming generally (e.g., microtransactions, online competitiveness) as they are to PES in particular. I also think that they do not spend long enough getting to grips with new editions, writing them off far too quickly. 

On the Winning Eleven site, a new series of posts has been started by "The PES Casual" - a 40-something committed PES player, who doesn't agree with the negativity. Here's a (somewhat rambling and indulgent) post which makes some good points: http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/pes-casual-lets-talk-hardcore-self-loathing-non-players-way-forward/

The thing is, even though I'm more positive and far less conspiratorial than the fierce Konami critics, I do acknowledge some things are just garbage right now. The passing is way too assisted, and got worse between the beta and demo. The tactical settings are not as effective as they should be, and the different systems are in conflict. The pace feels faster now than the beta did, especially post patch. Offline modes need a lot of attention and have been stagnating for years. 

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Here's a podcast where they're discussing the "Casual" piece, critically: http://pca.st/k7ux

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Few points :-

Who plays offline modes of anything these days 

 

Although I'm not a fan of the micro transactions , how do you think Konami afford to pay for licences 

 

Agree that MLO was great in terms of team building,however everyone just bought the same players so made it impossible to buy such players if you were a casual gamer 

 

For me there isn't enough variation in goals,but that comes down to how it's played by the individual 

 

 

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Watching a few streamers and they are moaning a fair bit

But it’s all down to playing MyClub, 

This year it’s good one game, bad the next 

In the good games your players do what you are asking them to do, but the bad games your players take an extra touch or won’t control an easy 5 yard pass, and will fail to get a shot away when in on goal 

I’ve seen it all myself 

But as for games on PEN, still loving them 

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3 minutes ago, Bridgey said:

Few points :-

Who plays offline modes of anything these days

Although I'm not a fan of the micro transactions , how do you think Konami afford to pay for licences

Agree that MLO was great in terms of team building,however everyone just bought the same players so made it impossible to buy such players if you were a casual gamer

For me there isn't enough variation in goals,but that comes down to how it's played by the individual

Yeah, I think that's part of the problem — imagine trying to convince the devs to soup up master league, and they'd be like: 'why? no-one really plays it any more, and it's not a money earner'. Still, FIFA made a big move with all that Story mode stuff. I didn't like how it looked, but it was interesting. And games like Madden and NBA supposedly have very in-depth managerial modes, so there's probably some market for that style.

Variation in goals — I think there's loads of variation, but yeah, it defo comes out more in PEN games.

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4 minutes ago, Brizzle said:

Watching a few streamers and they are moaning a fair bit

But it’s all down to playing MyClub, 

This year it’s good one game, bad the next 

In the good games your players do what you are asking them to do, but the bad games your players take an extra touch or won’t control an easy 5 yard pass, and will fail to get a shot away when in on goal 

I’ve seen it all myself 

But as for games on PEN, still loving them 

Yeah, I know what you mean re streamers. The only one I really watch is Lelly, because I find his rage really funny when it's genuine. But what I see in what they're moaning about often seems like lag issues or dodgy code, more than anything really permanent or deliberate.

I've definitely had some s**tty experiences with my team's AI. But it's always worse when I'm tired or on a losing streak.  I think people forget that what you're feeling like affects how you perceive a game. IMO, a lot of the scripting talk can be explained by this factor.

As for PEN games — I agree. They're always so much less frustrating, and AI errors, or recurring issues in the game seem fewer. And that's cos – in general – we respect each other and don't like to be really sweaty. How many of the consistent naysayers play offline or online games with like-minded mates? Those were the conditions of the PES halcyon days, after all. We weren't playing against 12yo myClub spammers and laggers back then.

That's why I wanted to ask you guys, since predominantly we play in different environments to the biggest critics.

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Just now, Janguv said:

Yeah, I know what you mean re streamers. The only one I really watch is Lelly, because I find his rage really funny when it's genuine. But what I see in what they're moaning about often seems like lag issues or dodgy code, more than anything really permanent or deliberate.

I've definitely had some s**tty experiences with my team's AI. But it's always worse when I'm tired or on a losing streak.  I think people forget that what you're feeling like affects how you perceive a game. IMO, a lot of the scripting talk can be explained by this factor.

As for PEN games — I agree. They're always so much less frustrating, and AI errors, or recurring issues in the game seem fewer. And that's cos – in general – we respect each other and don't like to be really sweaty. How many of the consistent naysayers play offline or online games with like-minded mates? Those were the conditions of the PES halcyon days, after all. We weren't playing against 12yo myClub spammers and laggers back then.

That's why I wanted to ask you guys, since predominantly we play in different environments to the biggest critics.

It’s MyClub, it’s poison 

It’s how the mode is designed 

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2 minutes ago, Brizzle said:

It’s MyClub, it’s poison 

It’s how the mode is designed 

I've been playing Divisions a lot lately, and tbh, it's not that different. So I question that analysis. People use exploits and s**tty behaviour when things don't go their way. I think it speaks to human nature, or at least the competitive part of it in online, anonymous environments.

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Wonderful game.

Love everything about it; from the flailing arm to the face followed by the theatrical hitting of the deck and writhing around grabbing the face to the little touches, player animations and individual characteristics.

Problem with these games is almost always a) how people play them, and b) lag, and the impact it can have on gameplay.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sunzibad said:

Problem with these games is almost always a) how people play them, and b) lag, and the impact it can have on gameplay.

Absolutely agree – the online modes have become so stagnant, that everybody moves online. But the people they play do it in such a competitive culture, which exacerbates problems in the code and is worsened by lag.

That said, the AI is pretty s**t. That's a point they make which I definitely agree with.

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1 hour ago, Janguv said:

The passing is way too assisted, and got worse between the beta and demo.

Did u know that u can turn the pass assists off? ;)  IMO PES manual is great, assisted it's terrible. 

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Love the game. Hate the players. 

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25 minutes ago, Gav1nG0ldstein said:

Did u know that u can turn the pass assists off? ;)  IMO PES manual is great, assisted it's terrible. 

Hey man, that's news to me! I just leave it on default, I think? It says "Level 3", I dno...

:lol:

Anyway, I really like the manual this year. I'm trying it in Master League. But some things take a lot of getting used to. E.g., on assisted, it'll recognise what you intend with a pass – say, you want to pass into space to your player, but literally as you press it, he's decided to run back or f**k off to the wing. On assisted, it'll realise your intention and then deliver a pass in his new direction. You don't realise it until you turn it to PA0, and then it becomes clear all the little things that PA1 does. Personally, I'd love a PA0.5 right now. Just a lot more error, basically. And through balls. Please f**king fix through balls, Konami! 

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30 minutes ago, Janguv said:

Hey man, that's news to me! I just leave it on default, I think? It says "Level 3", I dno...

:lol:

Anyway, I really like the manual this year. I'm trying it in Master League. But some things take a lot of getting used to. E.g., on assisted, it'll recognise what you intend with a pass – say, you want to pass into space to your player, but literally as you press it, he's decided to run back or f**k off to the wing. On assisted, it'll realise your intention and then deliver a pass in his new direction. You don't realise it until you turn it to PA0, and then it becomes clear all the little things that PA1 does. Personally, I'd love a PA0.5 right now. Just a lot more error, basically. And through balls. Please f**king fix through balls, Konami! 

haha!

yeh through balls are ridiculous, even with the 70 odd rated players they hit the target pinpoint better than Xavi or Maradona could ever do. Tedious is how i would describe it!

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6 minutes ago, Gav1nG0ldstein said:

haha!

yeh through balls are ridiculous, even with the 70 odd rated players they hit the target pinpoint better than Xavi or Maradona could ever do. Tedious is how i would describe it!

For me, while the pinpoint through balls or long low balls are definitely ridiculous and need to be nerfed, the bigger problem (because it affects how I play) is through balls going to the wrong target, often a very unintuitive selection, and not corresponding to your input. It's even worse when it "locks on", and nothing – not even super cancel – will change what's going to happen. It just won't allow you to switch player and receive the ball with the nearest player. And this is a pre-existing issue, it's not the "player switching bug".

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1 minute ago, Janguv said:

For me, while the pinpoint through balls or long low balls are definitely ridiculous and need to be nerfed, the bigger problem (because it affects how I play) is through balls going to the wrong target, often a very unintuitive selection, and not corresponding to your input. It's even worse when it "locks on", and nothing – not even super cancel – will change what's going to happen. It just won't allow you to switch player and receive the ball with the nearest player. And this is a pre-existing issue, it's not the "player switching bug".

oh right yeh i get u. Yeh that must be frustrating. Yeh exactly another reason i don't like the assisted, it's all pre dertimened, very unnatural. Doesn't feel like football, more like ur some sort of code programmer or something, i dunno just yeh player isn't really in control, the AI has too much influence. 

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I havent listened to the podcast but i completely agree that the online modes have gone downhill since PES 2011. Pes 2011 was by far the best MLO which is the best online mode in PES' history. The passing system is what brought me back to pes that year, MLO is what kept me playing. Then  they completely ruined it with pes 2012, from then it got worse each year
Online Gameplay is fun this year imo while also being very balanced, even in online divisions and PES league the games are enjoyable.
Theres only a few annoyances, passing being the main problem for me (as @Janguv describes above). Still hope for the day when they bring proper PA1 back, or pes 2011 passing system, the latter will never happen due to PA levels. PA levels and maybe the defensive side of the game are the only things i think theyve implemented solely for the casual market. With 2011 passing and 2013 defensive system and more responsive R2 Dribbling, the game would be pretty much my perfect PES.

Playing offline is boring, but for me thats the same with every sports game. Which is probably their main gripe with the game since theyre offline players. Theres no doubt ML can be improved, even improving little things like not having Messi join Huddersfield would be a start :lol:

Edited by Goat261

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9 minutes ago, Goat261 said:

Theres only a few annoyances, passing being the main problem for me (as @Janguv describes above).

I'm glad you agree re passing. I was commenting on a YouTuber's video about this, since he was criticising how FIFA re-directs through balls. And I said exactly the same happens in PES, but he says it never ever happens to him. I was kinda flummoxed. I know he's a PES veteran as well. But seems to me like it's been an issue for quite a few years at least.

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1 minute ago, Janguv said:

I'm glad you agree re passing. I was commenting on a YouTuber's video about this, since he was criticising how FIFA re-directs through balls. And I said exactly the same happens in PES, but he says it never ever happens to him. I was kinda flummoxed. I know he's a PES veteran as well. But seems to me like it's been an issue for quite a few years at least.

its definitely an issue and pretty much everyone here has witnessed it for themselves, maybe he doesnt use PA1?
As you know, sometimes you can tap the pass button for a little 5 yard pass only for the game to decide to belt it 60 yards to some other player :lol:
and as you say, its annoying when a player is locked on to the ball and you cant do anything to stop him, or switch player, despite one of your other players being closer to the ball.
Those are the two big issues imo, but passing been an issue for me since Pes 2016 (when they made current PA1 play more like 13-15s PA3), its why i played on manual for all of pes 2016.

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5 minutes ago, Goat261 said:

its definitely an issue and pretty much everyone here has witnessed it for themselves, maybe he doesnt use PA1?
As you know, sometimes you can tap the pass button for a little 5 yard pass only for the game to decide to belt it 60 yards to some other player :lol:
and as you say, its annoying when a player is locked on to the ball and you cant do anything to stop him, or switch player, despite one of your other players being closer to the ball.
Those are the two big issues imo, but passing been an issue for me since Pes 2016 (when they made current PA1 play more like 13-15s PA3), its why i played on manual for all of pes 2016.

Nah, he uses PA1. But mostly offline – maybe that makes a difference? I dunno. Uff, I've got to the point where I accept they have high assist settings for whatever reason. I just wish they'd adjust PA1 – they don't even have to make it the default, as far as I'm concerned. It's not being concerned about others online having an advantage; I just don't want so many ridiculous errors!

I'd take a listen to the FootyUnited pod when you get a chance (http://www.footy-united.com/podcasts/2018/1/19/episode-28). Would be interested to see what you think. They go over the top imo, largely because they're such huge fans. Bit of drama: I believe Bhatti unfollowed the B-Man. Seems petty, but maybe it's wise PR not to be following someone who is slagging off the game a lot.

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13 minutes ago, Janguv said:

Nah, he uses PA1. But mostly offline – maybe that makes a difference? I dunno. Uff, I've got to the point where I accept they have high assist settings for whatever reason. I just wish they'd adjust PA1 – they don't even have to make it the default, as far as I'm concerned. It's not being concerned about others online having an advantage; I just don't want so many ridiculous errors!

I'd take a listen to the FootyUnited pod when you get a chance (http://www.footy-united.com/podcasts/2018/1/19/episode-28). Would be interested to see what you think. They go over the top imo, largely because they're such huge fans. Bit of drama: I believe Bhatti unfollowed the B-Man. Seems petty, but maybe it's wise PR not to be following someone who is slagging off the game a lot.

Not sure how he hasnt noticed it bud, as its definitely there offline too, as well as 3vs3 co-op.
Thats how it used to be on pes 2013. PA3 was the default, most i think used PA2 back then, i used Pa1 and it was like pa0.5, passing was assisted, but through balls had a lot of freedom, they were pretty much full manual, it was like the closer you got to the oppositions goal the more manual the passes became. At least thats how i remember it.

im subscribed to them, just not got around to listening yet. But ive always respected Bryans views, hes always been the most honest (especially when he was on wenb podcast), and im right there with him in regards to wanting the stepovers to go back to the shoulder buttons :lol:
I think hes the best pes podcaster out there, good mix of honesty, makes good points, knows how to get his point across eloquently, and is entertaining. Although sounds like theyve gone a little overboard this time lol, unless most their gripes are with offline, i cant really comment on that since i only play offline when quickly trying a player to buy on PEN :lol:

Edited by Goat261

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3 minutes ago, Goat261 said:

im subscribed to them, just not got around to listening yet. But ive always respected Bryans views, hes always been the most honest (especially when he was on wenb podcast), and im right there with him in regards to wanting the stepovers to go back to the shoulder buttons :lol:
I think hes the best pes podcaster out there, good mix of honesty, makes good points, knows how to get his point across eloquently, and is entertaining. Although sounds like theyve gone a little overboard this time lol, unless most their gripes are with offline, i cant really comment on that since i only play offline when quickly trying a player to buy on PEN :lol:

The competition is pretty slim when it comes to PES podcasting. (Aside: I think some PEN guys could easily do an entertaining one.)

But yeah, I normally enjoy what he has to say. He's a bit of a broken record though. He says in one of the pods recently that he's just taken to playing FIFA online divisions for a football fix, which he thinks is better than nothing, and certainly better than PES. Not because the AI is any better, but because, according to him: the shooting in FIFA is much more satisfying and varied; the presentation is better (we can all agree there); the semi-assist passing option is better than PA1 on PES; and there's genuine risk-reward defending. I've not played FIFA at all in many years, so I can't attest to its quality in these areas. But my impression is that PES isn't as terrible on this score as he says it is. And he basically never plays it, which makes me think his opinion at this point is not the most reliable.

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Oh yeah, and he also said the "catch up bug" is back in PES, though not FIFA.

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I am going to play fifa in next few days with a mate who plays, he won't play PES, i'll let u know what i think. I'll try assisted and manual on it. Honestly make a Frillypink change, have to say i am sick to death now of playing assisted players on PES like on myclub etc, it's the same predictable play and goals most people do, probably cos its effective. I'm bored s**tless. It requires little thought or imagination, like Konami are to blame! I'm sure back in PES 5 or 6 up to 11 it wasn't like that. People had different styles etc, but i find now everyone i play assisted, more or less resembles each other. And people tend to find one/two ways of scoring and do it over and over! Mind numbing stuff!

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1 hour ago, Gav1nG0ldstein said:

I am going to play fifa in next few days with a mate who plays, he won't play PES, i'll let u know what i think. I'll try assisted and manual on it. Honestly make a Frillypink change, have to say i am sick to death now of playing assisted players on PES like on myclub etc, it's the same predictable play and goals most people do, probably cos its effective. I'm bored s**tless. It requires little thought or imagination, like Konami are to blame! I'm sure back in PES 5 or 6 up to 11 it wasn't like that. People had different styles etc, but i find now everyone i play assisted, more or less resembles each other. And people tend to find one/two ways of scoring and do it over and over! Mind numbing stuff!

It's exactly the same on FUT mate.Fut and myclub, especially Fut it's a need to win to keep collecting the cards.

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